NDL Forum

Based on what Dave is saying it now makes EVEN LESS sense that you would not vote for him.

But also missing from daves preamble was the experience, knowledge and naivety that most of us had to the situation and what some former members became.

Access to new information was received, reign supplied some stance on it with his experience, and my view changed completely.

So yes I may have been in the no retire camp early but also didn't have access to knowing as much as we fully did later on.

Fair to both arguments if you will.

Cnasty wrote:But also missing from daves preamble was the experience, knowledge and naivety that most of us had to the situation and what some former members became.

Access to new information was received, reign supplied some stance on it with his experience, and my view changed completely.

So yes I may have been in the no retire camp early but also didn't have access to knowing as much as we fully did later on.

Fair to both arguments if you will.

i'm fairly certain we all knew he was tainted his whole career. I used to openly make jokes about it when he was on my team. guys sniffed out his lack of history and his ratings jumps pretty early on in his career. I still to this day don't know 'how' he was tainted (i know it was explained somewhere but i couldn't find it and don't remember) but we all knew and talked about him being 'off'.

I can't find the posts when we discussed retiring him, it must have been In the admin or in PM's.

but I did find a couple things:
- people weren't even sure if he was good anymore when Iseem traded for him and after a couple of his injuries guys were saying he was done
- corey listed him first as a first ballot hof in an old hall of fame thread (bring old corey back!)

I've always had the same thoughts. we knew he was tainted, he played tainted and if we allowed him to play we should be voting on him objectively like we are supposed to be voting on everyone who is eligible.

I think we should start a HoF for coaches and if you don't vote you get fined 1m per coach on the ballot you could have voted for...because COACHES MATTER!

also I miss beefy ... damn he was the best.

he would BLAST people. then he'd chat on ps with you and tell you how much he loved you. he was a great crazy fucker. has anyone heard from him?

Pretty sure the first post I ever made on Cyborg was to point out it wasn't legit.

Team Dave here, we all knew from the get go

Just like all other votes Shel takes credit for and starts backing, this will fail as well.

DRiccio21 wrote:- corey listed him first as a first ballot hof in an old hall of fame thread

That's fantastic!

Cnasty wrote:But also missing from daves preamble was the experience, knowledge and naivety that most of us had to the situation and what some former members became.

Access to new information was received, reign supplied some stance on it with his experience, and my view changed completely.

So yes I may have been in the no retire camp early but also didn't have access to knowing as much as we fully did later on.

Fair to both arguments if you will.

My first ever post on Cyborg(5 years ago real time, that's crazy):

shel311 wrote: How'd a guy with Aria's ratings end up as a little known free agent that, unless I'm wrong here, no one really seems to recall this guy as a highly touted free agent when the season started?

Also those guys like Aria and Torres who came into FA with big ratings demanded big contracts.

Interesting...

Highlighted part was the biggie. We were to believe that a 79 potential prospect hit the free agent market and literally no one other than Bear noticed, and Bear signed him to a $720k contract, and he goes to AAA for a couple of sims before anyone notices this blue potential free agent out of nowhere.

Again, we found out so much more information after the fact that it completely changed many people's stance on it.

It's not crazy to think a view on the guy can't change when new evidence is presented.

I was wrong real time, got more information later and clearly changed my thoughts on it and knowing what I know now he definitely shouldn't be in the HOF. My opinion, as well as many others as it shows he hasn't made it yet, so I'm not crazy here.

Cnasty wrote:It's not crazy to think a view on the guy can't change when new evidence is presented.

Agreed. The crazy party is not knowing immediately that something was up.

Did Cyborg break the game or Wu?

DRiccio21 wrote:

Seeitsaveit13 wrote:

wdoupis wrote:I know he was messed with but you guys knew this and let him play. If you let him keep going and that was fine then it makes no sense to not vote him for the hall

I don't know that "you guys let him play" is accurate. I don't remember it being put to a vote. It may have been, and I'm sure someone can dig and find it, but I don't remember it being anything more than a commish decision at the time.

you don't remember very well.

I offered to retire him in the forums MULTIPLE times. Corey (and AJ) were the leaders in the clubhouse saying I shouldn't retire him and that he was in the game and should be used (i'm not sure if it was on this or the old boards but i'd love to have the old posts rehashed). there actually was never a single person who even sorta agreed that he should be retired. Cause I don't like even the suggestion of cheating, it bothers me. so I was very open and up front and if anyone did have a problem with him I probably would have just stopped using him. I never really thought much of it because when I traded for him he was on Detroit's trade block (I think he had just come off an injury the year before) and nobody was even trying to get him other than me cause he was 30 and it looked like he was starting to fade.

You keep taking this personally like I'm saying YOU cheated. You didn't do anything wrong. I never said you did.

And all I said was that I didn't remember it being put to a vote... Which you didn't prove it was or wasn't.

You are correct in saying that I don't remember you offering to retire him. I'd be curious to see what I did or didn't say on that topic.

Cnasty wrote:Again, we found out so much more information after the fact that it completely changed many people's stance on it.

It's not crazy to think a view on the guy can't change when new evidence is presented.

I was wrong real time, got more information later and clearly changed my thoughts on it and knowing what I know now he definitely shouldn't be in the HOF. My opinion, as well as many others as it shows he hasn't made it yet, so I'm not crazy here.

for the record, I don't think you or anyone not voting for him 'are crazy' or wrong or even illogical. I think there is a fair case for not voting for him and I actually think the debate is a cool part of our leagues history. my issue mostly lies with the consistency of peoples views thru the years and the portrayal of it to the new guys who are voting making it seem like someone was cheating or trying to get one over on the league. it almost seemed going thru the old posts that most guys were on board with him in the hall then Beefy started going nuts about it (again no problem with that) then about 3 or 4 seasons ago Seeit took over that campaign. a few guys have always been on the 'no' vote (AJ, Corey, Seeit, Beefy, George) and that's perfectly fine.

Seeitsaveit13 wrote:

DRiccio21 wrote:

Seeitsaveit13 wrote:

wdoupis wrote:I know he was messed with but you guys knew this and let him play. If you let him keep going and that was fine then it makes no sense to not vote him for the hall

I don't know that "you guys let him play" is accurate. I don't remember it being put to a vote. It may have been, and I'm sure someone can dig and find it, but I don't remember it being anything more than a commish decision at the time.

you don't remember very well.

I offered to retire him in the forums MULTIPLE times. Corey (and AJ) were the leaders in the clubhouse saying I shouldn't retire him and that he was in the game and should be used (i'm not sure if it was on this or the old boards but i'd love to have the old posts rehashed). there actually was never a single person who even sorta agreed that he should be retired. Cause I don't like even the suggestion of cheating, it bothers me. so I was very open and up front and if anyone did have a problem with him I probably would have just stopped using him. I never really thought much of it because when I traded for him he was on Detroit's trade block (I think he had just come off an injury the year before) and nobody was even trying to get him other than me cause he was 30 and it looked like he was starting to fade.

You keep taking this personally like I'm saying YOU cheated. You didn't do anything wrong. I never said you did.

And all I said was that I didn't remember it being put to a vote... Which you didn't prove it was or wasn't.

You are correct in saying that I don't remember you offering to retire him. I'd be curious to see what I did or didn't say on that topic.

Just saw your other post. 3rd line is moot because apparently it was in admin or pm's or something to Reign or whomever was commish at the time (Trendon I think?)

I agree as I always enjoy debating him but i don't agree that new guys don't get the history behind it to make a fair decision on it.

Unbiasedly providing the history behind him is a fair point to provide.

In the end, we know he was messed with, pitched all those years, and was kept around. My opinion being is that we confirmed and found out so even with being allowed to be kept in the league, how are we ok with his "fake stats" being in our prestigious Hall of Fame?!?

#TEAMNOROBOT

Seeitsaveit13 wrote:

DRiccio21 wrote:

Seeitsaveit13 wrote:

wdoupis wrote:I know he was messed with but you guys knew this and let him play. If you let him keep going and that was fine then it makes no sense to not vote him for the hall

I don't know that "you guys let him play" is accurate. I don't remember it being put to a vote. It may have been, and I'm sure someone can dig and find it, but I don't remember it being anything more than a commish decision at the time.

you don't remember very well.

I offered to retire him in the forums MULTIPLE times. Corey (and AJ) were the leaders in the clubhouse saying I shouldn't retire him and that he was in the game and should be used (i'm not sure if it was on this or the old boards but i'd love to have the old posts rehashed). there actually was never a single person who even sorta agreed that he should be retired. Cause I don't like even the suggestion of cheating, it bothers me. so I was very open and up front and if anyone did have a problem with him I probably would have just stopped using him. I never really thought much of it because when I traded for him he was on Detroit's trade block (I think he had just come off an injury the year before) and nobody was even trying to get him other than me cause he was 30 and it looked like he was starting to fade.

You keep taking this personally like I'm saying YOU cheated. You didn't do anything wrong. I never said you did.

And all I said was that I didn't remember it being put to a vote... Which you didn't prove it was or wasn't.

You are correct in saying that I don't remember you offering to retire him. I'd be curious to see what I did or didn't say on that topic.

I can assure I take none of this personally nor do I think anyone is accusing me of anything.

this has nothing to do with me really other than he was on my team later in his career. i'm not even sure he'd be a Spitter in the hall... his best years were mostly on the LOLCats.

you've known me for a decade now, i'm assuming you understand my quirks by now... this is mostly about consistency for me. like I said in the post above, not voting for him is fine, but the explanations to the new guys aren't remotely fair if you were to look back on his time in the league. the hatred for cyborg happened after his career. during his career it was mostly curiosity and confusion. people definitely had issues with the incredible performance (which were addressed) but he had his warts too (injuries/stamina), it wasn't always this sure fire slam dunk superstar his whole career. there were some doubts along the way despite his absurd greatness.

DRiccio21 wrote:also I miss beefy ... damn he was the best.

he would BLAST people. then he'd chat on ps with you and tell you how much he loved you. he was a great crazy fucker. has anyone heard from him?

I chatted with him 2 weeks ago. He's having some health issues but he is getting thru it. He said everything was messing with his immune system while going thru Chemo.

I agree, I miss BEEFY as well. Cranky old man and no issues calling a spade a spade in his own 5 paragraph rant, but then would say how much he loved all of us as well at the end.

DRiccio21 wrote:

Cnasty wrote:Again, we found out so much more information after the fact that it completely changed many people's stance on it.

It's not crazy to think a view on the guy can't change when new evidence is presented.

I was wrong real time, got more information later and clearly changed my thoughts on it and knowing what I know now he definitely shouldn't be in the HOF. My opinion, as well as many others as it shows he hasn't made it yet, so I'm not crazy here.

for the record, I don't think you or anyone not voting for him 'are crazy' or wrong or even illogical. I think there is a fair case for not voting for him and I actually think the debate is a cool part of our leagues history. my issue mostly lies with the consistency of peoples views thru the years and the portrayal of it to the new guys who are voting making it seem like someone was cheating or trying to get one over on the league. it almost seemed going thru the old posts that most guys were on board with him in the hall then Beefy started going nuts about it (again no problem with that) then about 3 or 4 seasons ago Seeit took over that campaign. a few guys have always been on the 'no' vote (AJ, Corey, Seeit, Beefy, George) and that's perfectly fine.

"Someone" getting one over on the league, was not you. It was Bear. Someone who obviously will go down in infamy (if he hasn't already).

Thomas obviously performed for your team. You did nothing wrong to get him.

I'm trying to think of a good example from actual baseball, but it's obviously not there. Closest I can think of is a player getting accused of steroids early on, but not getting caught. He gets traded. You, the new GM, take him in, only having heard rumors, but never any smoking gun. He plays well for you, arguably HOF. Later on, towards the end of his career, it comes to light that he juiced, and pretty badly. You're not a bad GM for making a deal for a good player. But does that guy get into the HOF? Honestly, we can't say, because the voters haven't answered that questions with the Bonds', Clemens' etc yet. They've sort of answered it, because no one is in, but a few of them are getting closer and closer.

So actually, maybe we ARE closer to the MLB than we think. We're just going faster so we'll find out sooner lol.

DRiccio21 wrote: the hatred for cyborg happened after his career. during his career it was mostly curiosity and confusion.

Team Dave and Team Shel don't seem to be on the same page.