cdub21 wrote:ok i think its just dumb to say there have been a lot of better qbs in the last 17 years.. there hasn't..
Montana
Manning
Brady
Elway
are 4 no doubters IMO, even though some people would argue otherwise which is fine but nothing changes my mind on these.
Other good ones (no order and I don't exactly consider them all better):
Steve Young
Troy Aikman
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Kurt Warner
Steve Mcnair
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:25 pm
by nick
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:43 pm
by jsence2
Favre isn't one of the best "Quarterbacks" of all time. He's one of the best PASSERS of all time.
The best "Quarterbacks" lead their team to victory, don't make BONEHEAD mistakes in the most clutch of times, and don't make a mistake that you learn in TRAINING CAMP you can't get away with.
Peyton Manning, John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana.....those are great QUARTERBACKS. There's a reason that the last MEANINGFUL passes that Favre threw with the Packers, the Jets, and the Vikings were all interceptions....an argument can be made that, without Desmond Howard and a good defensive effort, Favre ends his career without a single ring!
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:44 pm
by jsence2
packsyD22 wrote:
shel311 wrote:
packsyD22 wrote:EDIT: That game was going to fucking OT unless he completes the pass anyway.
Not sure how you can say that so with so much confidence.
He easily gets inside the 35, which makes it a VERY makeable kick for a guy like Longwell.
Longwells career long is what 52 yards? They showed his playoff percentage was something like around 53%? Game going to to OT.
He also would not have easily gotten to the 35 esp if you slide, your down where you slide with a defense closing in on you.
Hey Pat, know what the best part is?
We will never KNOW if he would have made that FG. Favre didn't give him the chance
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:54 pm
by Cnasty
nick wrote:
Where is my Vegas boyfriend Stan?? This was our NDL Vegas anthem.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:57 pm
by shel311
nick wrote:
shel311 wrote:
packsyD22 wrote:He also would not have easily gotten to the 35 esp if you slide, your down where you slide with a defense closing in on you.
And even if he gets right to the 35, it is a makeable kick, without question, so taking that huge risk, in a situation of that magnitude, he just has to know he can't do that.
you kill me with your loose terms. Stop using makeable. Yes its "makeable" just as much as I could get with a super model who enjoyed people with good personalities. Anything in life is "makeable" by your loose standards.
factor in that it's a 50+ yard field goal in the NFC Championship away, with 70 000+ people screaming/booing at you and I'm willing to bet the % isn't on the makeable side, more like unmakeable.
You're a smart dude, so it's beyond me how this is going wayyyyy over your head.
Packsy said that Longwell wasn't making that kick, like it was automatic. My response was that it wasn't nowhere near a no brainer. Even if your silly percentages say there's a 30% chance he makes it from the 35, I'm still right. That means it IS makeable and that 30% chance is a hell of a lot better than Favre throwing across his body into the middle of the field.
You jumped into something I responded to with Packsy, and are arguing it, even though you basically admitted I was right, by saying the stupid kick is still makeable.
And people say I argue just to argue? HA
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:16 pm
by TEEwade
jsence2 wrote:Favre isn't one of the best "Quarterbacks" of all time. He's one of the best PASSERS of all time.
The best "Quarterbacks" lead their team to victory, don't make BONEHEAD mistakes in the most clutch of times, and don't make a mistake that you learn in TRAINING CAMP you can't get away with.
Peyton Manning, John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana.....those are great QUARTERBACKS. There's a reason that the last MEANINGFUL passes that Favre threw with the Packers, the Jets, and the Vikings were all interceptions....an argument can be made that, without Desmond Howard and a good defensive effort, Favre ends his career without a single ring!
Its good to finally agree with each other.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:47 pm
by vicktim7
favre has led his teams to more victories than any other qb in history, so if that's the criteria you're using ("The best "Quarterbacks" lead their team to victory"), you're off.
i'm no favre hugger, but give him his due. you forget the man's 42. with sage or tavaris at qb, that team's not even in the game yesterday. what does it say that a 42 year old had maybe his best statistical season ever considering the season's that he's had in the past. he made a bonehead play, sure. that doesn't diminish his historical standing. he's in that upper echelon with montana, elway, manning, brady, and young. i'd argue warner in that elite list, as well. farve is over aikman in my book. aikman had MUCH better teams around him.
and to think with the falcons he was jerry glanville's bet winner. ol' "mississippi" was always good for throwing the ball in the third deck to win bets.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:52 pm
by shel311
Good stuff Tim. I'll just say a couple of things in response.
Favre's 40, not 42. But that doesn't matter, it's amazing what he did this year at that age. The Saints game kinda summed his career in a lot of ways. Took a beating, always got up and kept on chugging, threw a lot, made a lot of yards, and unfortunately for his legacy, made a boneheaded play that really hurt his team. Though, he has done lots of good and wons lots of games in his career.
I think he's somewhere in the top 10, maybe slightly outside, so I don't think he can be put in the Montana/Brady/Young/Manning/Elway class, at all. But that's not a slight on him at all.
Aikman was very serviceable, but I think he may be one of the most overrated QBs of all time, IMO. His stats are rather pedestrian, he played with some sick players on those Cowboys teams, and while he was still a good ball player, he's just a perfect example of how SB rings shouldn't be THAT important in judging players' careers.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:01 am
by vicktim7
shel311 wrote:Good stuff Tim. I'll just say a couple of things in response.
Favre's 40, not 42. But that doesn't matter, it's amazing what he did this year at that age. The Saints game kinda summed his career in a lot of ways. Took a beating, always got up and kept on chugging, threw a lot, made a lot of yards, and unfortunately for his legacy, made a boneheaded play that really hurt his team. Though, he has done lots of good and wons lots of games in his career.
I think he's somewhere in the top 10, maybe slightly outside, so I don't think he can be put in the Montana/Brady/Young/Manning/Elway class, at all. But that's not a slight on him at all.
Aikman was very serviceable, but I think he may be one of the most overrated QBs of all time, IMO. His stats are rather pedestrian, he played with some sick players on those Cowboys teams, and while he was still a good ball player, he's just a perfect example of how SB rings shouldn't be THAT important in judging players' careers.
thanks for the heads up. that darn gray hair messes with me, lol. i like favre in the second tier of qbs as well. for me, i put montana, manning, and brady at the top. elway probably fits in there as well. favre goes along with young and warner just below them. big ben and others could make a case for this group before it's over. aikman goes here because of the rings, but like you said, he's a bit overrated. he's overrated where young is probably underrated. warner as well.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:08 am
by shel311
Man, we're so on the same page. I also have Young as probably the most underrated. I'd obviously never say he had the better career, but I think Steve Young was a better QB than Montana. That may be a stretch, but I think he would have done all the same great things Montana did had he played all those years.
Oh and Brett's hair isn't gray, that's salt and pepper brotha!!!
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:35 am
by packsyD22
The fact that none of you have said Jim Kelly or Terry Bradshaw bothers me.
EDIT: Or fucking Dan Marino......guy was almost s good as Peyton, just never could put it together for that championship run I guess.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:41 am
by cdub21
packsyD22 wrote:The fact that none of you have said Jim Kelly or Terry Bradshaw bothers me.
EDIT: Or fucking Dan Marino......guy was almost s good as Peyton, just never could put it together for that championship run I guess.
think we're talking about last ~20 years, but Marino is def up there. Not saying Brett is the best ever, but he deserves to be towards the top.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:19 am
by vicktim7
thanks, packsy. marino is the one i kept forgetting. he'd be in that 2nd tier for me for sure. kelly and bradshaw are right around there. bradshaw was an aikman type guy in that his team was just stacked. he came up big in the clutch games, for sure. kelly is a more interesting case for me, though. i don't consider him in that favre/warner/young class though. right below and it's not just the 0-4 thing. what he has going for him is what manning has going for him. he really was running the show quite a bit himself in an innovative offense.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:55 am
by Matt90210
TEEwade wrote:
cdub21 wrote:ok i think its just dumb to say there have been a lot of better qbs in the last 17 years.. there hasn't..
Montana
Manning
Brady
Elway
are 4 no doubters IMO, even though some people would argue otherwise which is fine but nothing changes my mind on these.
Other good ones (no order and I don't exactly consider them all better):
Steve Young
Troy Aikman
Drew Brees Ben Roethlisberger
Kurt Warner
Steve Mcnair
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:13 am
by packsyD22
The thing that is under rated about Jim Kelly is like a Peyton Manning he was a good pro...if that makes sense. He was a student of the game and like you said had a great control of their offensive scheme. They did have their issues in the Super Bowl but there was a nice period of time where the Bills DOMINATED the AFC and he was a huge reason for it.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:46 am
by GeorgesGoons
Matt90210 wrote:
TEEwade wrote:
cdub21 wrote:ok i think its just dumb to say there have been a lot of better qbs in the last 17 years.. there hasn't..
Montana
Manning Brady Just to get Trendon riled up
Elway
are 4 no doubters IMO, even though some people would argue otherwise which is fine but nothing changes my mind on these.
Other good ones (no order and I don't exactly consider them all better):
Steve Young
Troy Aikman Drew Brees Hasnt played long enough Ben Roethlisberger
Kurt Warner Steve Mcnair
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:47 am
by DRiccio21
shel311 wrote:
I think he's somewhere in the top 10, maybe slightly outside, so I don't think he can be put in the Montana/Brady/Young/Manning/Elway class, at all. But that's not a slight on him at all.
Aikman was very serviceable, but I think he may be one of the most overrated QBs of all time, IMO. His stats are rather pedestrian, he played with some sick players on those Cowboys teams, and while he was still a good ball player, he's just a perfect example of how SB rings shouldn't be THAT important in judging players' careers.
pretty much exactly how i feel on the subject
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:54 am
by packsyD22
If you look at Aikmans numbers compared to some other qbs his numbers aren't impressive at all.
Re: NFL Sunday
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:06 pm
by packsyD22
Jsut re watched the play.....he def would have made the 35 if not even more yards......
