NBA Thread

[DRiccio21]

whatever team Dave pulls for.

Team Lebron is my team

[ReignOnU]

If you want to play the stats game, Kobe may not be the best. But it's what you do when it's time to win the game. Enjoy watching Lebron pass up those last second shots fellas. Best of luck to Eddie House / Mike Miller. Maybe, if you're lucky, Lebron won't take off game 5 in the playoffs this year.

[DRiccio21]

If you want to play the stats game, Kobe may not be the best. But it's what you do when it's time to win the game. Enjoy watching Lebron pass up those last second shots fellas. Best of luck to Eddie House / Mike Miller. Maybe, if you're lucky, Lebron won't take off game 5 in the playoffs this year.

and reignOnU watches too much sportscenter

i just posted the numbers. stop letting your personal opinions get in the way of facts. Lebron is the most 'clutch' player in the league. Clutch is so fucking stupid. with enough sample size, the best players are the best whether its the first 5 minutes or the last 5 minutes of a game.

LOOK. AT. THE. NUMBERS.

[ReignOnU]

You can scream look at the numbers all you want. Watch.... The... Game.

If you're expecting MJ from Lebron, you're going to be disappointed. The closest comparison for him is Magic and that's even a stretch.

1v1, Kobe beats him.
With a similarly talented team, Kobe beats him.
That's just how it is. (Feel free to ask Kobe to, he has no problem telling you that)

Lebron is an incredible athlete, but he's not a leader and the guy to close out games. He's a very selfish player that doesn't understand how to make his team better. He's an incredibly talented/physically gifted player, but he's immature as a basketball player. When things don't go right, he just ball hogs and tries to do it all himself. Everyone wants to point the finger and say that he did it in Cleveland because they didn't have anyone to help him. That's just not true. On many occasions he ignored the open man and tried to force his way to the basket or pulled up for a 28' Sportscenter 3 pointer. And admittedly, the crowd went nuts when he did it. (The Q was by far the most exciting place to watch a game in the midwest) But at the end of the day, he wasn't making the right decisions on a consistent basis. He doesn't understand spacing. And at times I don't think he understands offensive flow as well as he should. (I think you saw some prime examples of the spacing last night) Again, watch the games.

I work with numbers for a living, like many of you guys, we all know that they can be very misleading.

[ajalves]

1v1??

lol

Kobe is more like Iverson than Jordan

[ajalves]

You can scream look at the numbers all you want. Watch.... The... Game.

If you're expecting MJ from Lebron, you're going to be disappointed. The closest comparison for him is Magic and that's even a stretch.

1v1, Kobe beats him.
With a similarly talented team, Kobe beats him.
That's just how it is. (Feel free to ask Kobe to, he has no problem telling you that)

Lebron is an incredible athlete, but he's not a leader and the guy to close out games. He's a very selfish player that doesn't understand how to make his team better. He's an incredibly talented/physically gifted player, but he's immature as a basketball player. When things don't go right, he just ball hogs and tries to do it all himself. Everyone wants to point the finger and say that he did it in Cleveland because they didn't have anyone to help him. That's just not true. On many occasions he ignored the open man and tried to force his way to the basket or pulled up for a 28' Sportscenter 3 pointer. And admittedly, the crowd went nuts when he did it. (The Q was by far the most exciting place to watch a game in the midwest) But at the end of the day, he wasn't making the right decisions on a consistent basis. He doesn't understand spacing. And at times I don't think he understands offensive flow as well as he should. (I think you saw some prime examples of the spacing last night) Again, watch the games.

I work with numbers for a living, like many of you guys, we all know that they can be very misleading.

whoa whoa whoa

Lebron isnt a leader, but Kobe is?

Up until 1 1/2 years ago Kobe was possibly the most selfish player in NBA history.

No one gives a shit about "leaders" anyhow. Drew Brees is a 'leader' cause he throws for 5000 yards and 40 tds.....if he didnt, he'd be Alex Smith.

[DRiccio21]

right. cause Kobe never did any of that stuff. gimme a break.

please explain to me how the numbers, what actually happens, can be misleading.

maybe in 1 game or 1 month or even 1 season they can be slightly misleading but over the course of a career its very difficult for the numbers to be misleading.

Kobe is a killer!!!! an assassin!

and obviously you don't follow the NBA threads on this board very often, cause other then Shel i'm probably the only person who does watch NBA regular season games. I watch probably 2 a night, which is slightly embarrassing to admit.

me watching the games means nothing... i am a human, i have emotions that get in the way of making sound judgements. even tho i think i know the game very well, my opinions are worthless. the only way a person can make unbiased decisions is by using a quantitative measure. Stats in this day and age are so advanced in baseball and basketball that we can take out all personal opinions and go by the numbers.

the people who don't want to go by the numbers are generally the people who don't want to take the time to research them and would rather go by 'what they think'.

[DRiccio21]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGoxIvuPtmo[/youtube]

[Cnasty]

Can we draw the line in the sand to get this all sorted out please??

Feel free to join a team but you might be fighting for bench time.

Team Lebron
Dave
Shel
Nasty
Nick(fantasy tie in)

Team Kobe
Reign
Jdaddy
90210
Marky Mark

Switzerland
AJ

[DRiccio21]

the team Kobe people are the same people that probably think Jeter is more clutch then ARod and that it takes 'guts' to 'drive' to win. They are the same people who think winning a championship in a team sport makes them better individual players then guys who haven't won rings. They are the same people who don't think you can consider Peyton Manning an all time great until he wins a superbowl. Then the day he wins 1 game he suddenly becomes great. Yet Ben Roethlisberger played one of his worst games ever in his first superbowl and they still won. So if Ben put up slightly less numbers then Peyton, these guys would say Ben was better cause of that ring (obviously Ben righted himself in the 2nd super bowl, just saying) which is ridiculous.

its called lazy thinking.

again... i want to make this clear. i'm not a genius, these aren't MY opinions. I just like to look at facts rather then what i 'think' i see.

[ReignOnU]

I don't judge the players specifically by their stats in any sport. If you understand the game, then you know exactly what I mean when I say that numbers can be misleading. Just like you're going to find out how selfish Lebron can be, you'll also find out that Chris Bosh isn't nearly what his Toronto numbers suggest that he is. (congrats Chris, you were the tallest of the pygmies.)

@ AJ - I'm not sure which MJ you watched during his career, but if you believe that he was some kind generous team orchestrator, then you're really off base. MJ was extremely selfhish as well, just not to the point that it was a problem for the team. He knew when to take over the game and when to use his team properly. Iverson is/was a malcontent that was only in it for himself. (btw, his dumb ass won't last 2yrs in Turkey) Kobe is very much like Mike was. He doesn't take crap from anyone, he has no problems being (and wanting to be) the man, and he understands how to do it with in the offense. Lebron's basketball IQ isn't there. He doesn't want to be the closer and he's a lot more passive than most of you realize.

I'm right there with you Dave. I watch quite a bit of NBA ball. I'd say I saw about 20-25 Cavs games last season, to go with a lot of west coast games each week. I'm not a Cavs fan, I never jumped on the bandwagon, though I've been to quite a few games. (normally to see the competition/a great game)

If you guys believe in the stats, I won't be able to change your mind. But if you're Miami fans, I'll stand by my statement that you're going to see a different Lebron than what you think you're getting. Wade will continue to the best player on that team.

[DRiccio21]

we can agree to disagree.

you're comments insinuating that 'if i understood' the game then i'd realize stats can be misleading is pretty arrogant (its not hurting my feelings, i realize we're just debating basketball).

its usually what people say when they are arguing and don't have any rebuttal... 'I just understand and you don't' or 'I talked to so and so (enter the name of someone intended to intimidate me) and he agrees with me'

those answers are all bullshit. facts are facts. Michael Jordan or Jesus Christ could tell me he thinks Kobe Bryant is better then Lebron and i'd tell Michael Jordan he's wrong.

if you want to say he's got more skill/talent... sure, maybe... thats not something we can alayze so its gonna be based on opinions. fuck, Elton Brand could have more skill then David Lee but that doesn't make him a better player right now. Production matters, thats it.

[ReignOnU]

I wasn't insinuating that you don't understand the game, I was saying that you DO understand the game, so you KNOW that the numbers can be misleading. Brett Favre holds a truckload of passing records, but he's not the best QB ever. Stats are only a glimpse of what the player is all about.

[ReignOnU]

It's easy to throw up incredible numbers when:

A.) You're selfish to the extent of hurting your team.
B.) You are the main focal point (/glares at Chris Bosh)


At what risk are those stats accumulated?

I've said all along that Lebron's biggest issues are maturity, selfishness and what appears to be average basketball IQ. And like you said, those aren't measurable.

The stats are the reason that the public has the perception that they do of him. (and obviously he's an incredibly talented/physically gifted athlete)

My point is, there is a lot more to the story than stats/ability.

[DRiccio21]

I wasn't insinuating that you don't understand the game, I was saying that you DO understand the game, so you KNOW that the numbers can be misleading. Brett Favre holds a truckload of passing records, but he's not the best QB ever. Stats are only a glimpse of what the player is all about.

but the stats i'm coming to you with aren't points per game or wins by a baseball pitcher or passing yards. if i was saying something as simple as that then i could understand where you're coming from.

i'm presenting stats that encompass every aspect of a players game... they reward efficiency. a player like Kobe can score 30 points but do it in a way that actually hurts his team. there is a very popular school of thought out there by sabretric people that believe Kobe did more to hurt his team during last years NBA finals then help them.

PER strives to measure a player's per-minute performance, while adjusting for pace. A league-average PER is always 15.00, which permits comparisons of player performance across seasons.

PER takes into account positive accomplishments, such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones, such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls. The formula adds positive stats and subtracts negative ones through a statistical point value system. The rating for each player is then adjusted to a per-minute basis so that, for example, substitutes can be compared with starters in playing time debates. It is also adjusted for the team's pace. In the end, one number sums up the players' statistical accomplishments for that season.

[DRiccio21]

It's easy to throw up incredible numbers when:

A.) You're selfish to the extent of hurting your team.
B.) You are the main focal point (/glares at Chris Bosh)

a) the guy averages like 8 assists per game and has the best numbers during clutch time of ANY player in the NBA and its hurting his team? he took a team of nobodies to the finals. how did he hurt his team? you're actually hurting your argument cause Kobe played bad and almost hurt his teams chances of winning in the finals cause he was so selfish (see turnovers and low shooting %)

b) the stats take into account all of that. its based by possession and it encompasses pace of play, number of shots, etc. Its efficiency.

At what risk are those stats accumulated?

you're 100% right. Lebron and Bosh have proven to do it very efficiently while Kobe has got away with having inefficient production and still win cause he's surrounded by superior teammates. There is a legit argument that can be made that Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team last year. I think he is slightly better then Pau, but not by much.

I've said all along that Lebron's biggest issues are maturity, selfishness and what appears to be average basketball IQ. And like you said, those aren't measurable.

all that stuff is measurable. its measurable by how efficiently he produces. like AJ said, Drew Brees has high football IQ and is a leader and is mature cause he put up 5000 yards ... if he didn't he'd be Alex Smith.

this is totally off my real argument and just speaking with my personal opinion. If you think Lebron has average basketball IQ then

[Cnasty]

Ahhh, so glad basketball season is back.

Im also glad Riccio is on my team so he can take the time to argue and throw out all the stats and stuff.

Team work!!!!

[Nole4real]

Now that Lebron is on my team, I am on Team Lebron.

Welcome me with open arms Shel and Dave!!!!

+1

though i havent been to a game since 98

BUT, I think I have an XS "Baby jordan" Harold Miner jersey somewhere at my moms house from my 1st game in 93 or so

thats got to be good for something

[Cnasty]

Harold Miner, wow. Nice Nole

Yea I have a Glen Rice jersey somewhere. He was my favorite during the Bimbo Coles, Seikaly, Askins days.

[ReignOnU]

I do think he has an average basketball IQ as it relates to other NBA players. He's shown time after time that he struggles with spacing and ball movement. Again, I've watch quite a few Cleveland games, it's been glaringly obvious.

As for PER, I'm very familiar with it. Lebron is a stat machine, that's what he does. PER does NOT factor at what cost those stats are accumulated. If a player jumps passing lanes to get steals, but more frequently allows his opponent to score, that's poor defense, not great defense because they have higher than normal steals. If a player has 2 game winning opportunities, goes 1/2 on his shots, but on the 1 he missed, didn't pass it to a wide open player under the rim, then that's not reflected. Stats can be accumulated at the risk of the team.

As for the argument that Kobe almost cost his team, that comes with the territory. If you're going to be the main guy, the team does/does not with you. The Lakers did... the Cavs did not. You can argue that Kobe could have cost his team the NBA title and I'll tell you that Lebron did cost his team a chance at the title. There is no argument in that.

Watch the flow the Miami's offense over the next few weeks. You're going to see exactly what I'm talking about. This isn't D-Wade's team anymore. This is Lebron's team and your going to play Lebron basketball whenever Lebron wants. That means clear out, Bosh to the weakside of the lane and stand around, while Lebron goes to the hole or forces a bad 3 from 6' behind the arc. While Boston, Orlando and LA are playing basketball, Miami gets to play Lebronball.