NFL Thread

[walker213]

walker, you seriously just posted 4 replies in a row? just copy and paste all the of them into one solid reply. you just went from 2 to 3 in my top 25 vote for that one.

My bad bro, I'll be sure to do it next time!

Brady is great but why do we always hear about how he plays with a bunch of bum wr's but we never mention how he plays with a steel wall wrapped around him.

he literally gets 7-8 seconds to make a decision back there.

great OL >>>> great wrs

Tom Brady has the best pocket presence in the NFL, no doubt about it. Maybe he's just best at calling out the blitzes, communicating with the O-line, and having great pocket presence to avoid pressure.

Great OL < Great WR's (if your O-line is average, not if they are piss poor)

Super Bowl XLII is the perfect example. Justin Tuck and Jay Alford single-handedly won that Super Bowl, blowing up the A-Gap and Brady for 60 minutes.

No doubt about that.

And to that point that year, Brady got the best protection I've ever seen in my life for a QB. It was amazing.

Must not have seen the game vs. the Jets earlier this season!

I've watched probably 3 Colts games this season. Seen 1 drop that I can remember out of him. What exactly has he done that's made him a below average wide receiver? (not saying you are wrong, just curious)

Article from a Colt blog about Garcon's year...

http://18to88.com/2010-archives/novembe ... eouts.html

Gotta love the tag line on that blog "It Ain't Homerism if you're Right"

Those are some crazy ass stats, I don't even know how to respond to something like that... All I'm saying is Garcon is an explosive receiver, has great speed, runs great routes, is a BEAST after the catch, and has good enough hands to be a solid receiver in the NFL. I don't know where you can really knock the guy, other than the fact that he isn't a 6'4" guy.

[walker213]

This guy is "average" or a "bum"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHhRdIpWyEU

I honestly see him making Peyton look better on a few throws.

Against a top corner in the NFL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLqAJJW ... re=related

[DRiccio21]

so Brady's line isn't that great because of one game vs the jets compared to about 100 others and Garcon is a beast despite the evidence supporting exactly the opposite

got it.

[shel311]

Walker, you're killing me with not just 1 game sample sizes, but one PLAY sample sizes.

All I'm saying is Garcon is an explosive receiver, has great speed, runs great routes, is a BEAST after the catch

But he's really not all of those things.

Hell, his numbers this year are really nothing special, especially given that Manning leads the league in pass attempts. Austin Collie has much better numbers considering he's played 2 less games.

I know you laughed off the previous article showing his struggles, which is funny in itself, but here's yet another:

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2010/11/16/ ... sing-trust



It just seems like you're insinuating that we're way off base and have no basis for the opinion that Garcon is having a bad year, but I honestly thought that was kind of a given and most people felt that way.

I believe I also read somewhere that he is also in the top 10 in the NFL in dropped passes.

[Bernie32]

way to get your hands dirty and do your own work Shel, kudos

[shel311]

way to get your hands dirty and do your own work Shel, kudos

Where were you on that one.

Bernie making me do my own work...shit.

[walker213]

so Brady's line isn't that great because of one game vs the jets compared to about 100 others and Garcon is a beast despite the evidence supporting exactly the opposite

got it.

I never said Brady's line isn't great?..

And that is one game's highlights?.. How is that not evidence of the things I said about him? You can tell from one game if a guy has great speed, YAC ability, route running, etc. can you not? I am not saying he is a top 30 receiver in the NFL, but he is far from a slouch

Walker, you're killing me with not just 1 game sample sizes, but one PLAY sample sizes.

All I'm saying is Garcon is an explosive receiver, has great speed, runs great routes, is a BEAST after the catch

But he's really not all of those things.

Hell, his numbers this year are really nothing special, especially given that Manning leads the league in pass attempts. Austin Collie has much better numbers considering he's played 2 less games.

I know you laughed off the previous article showing his struggles, which is funny in itself, but here's yet another:

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2010/11/16/ ... sing-trust



It just seems like you're insinuating that we're way off base and have no basis for the opinion that Garcon is having a bad year, but I honestly thought that was kind of a given and most people felt that way.

I believe I also read somewhere that he is also in the top 10 in the NFL in dropped passes.

First, I wasn't laughing at the article saying it isn't evidence or anything like that, I just thought it was very weird statistics, so I said I couldn't argue with it.

Second, that article says he's not showing effort and isn't accountable? If anything it DOES prove what I said in terms of explosion, speed, etc. lol

Lastly, I am not saying y'all are wrong about his year. Statistically, it has not been great. All I said was he runs very fast, makes plays with the ball in his hands, and runs nasty routes <--- Things I have LITERALLY seen watching games. In those other games he played maybe he dropped 100 balls. All I said was my opinion on him, and how I think he is FAR from a bum.

[packsyD22]

Shel is a numbers guy walker........can't base his opinions with his own eyes because he doesn't know the game of football like someone who actually may have played or coaches the game does.

I think numbers can be just as skewed as opinions........take interceptions for example. What if Brady's 4 picks (no idea by the way) were results of batted balls at the line or dropped balls off of WR's hands into the DB's hands. Thats why sometimes throwing numbers at people is assanine at times just as much as opinion could be. Certain players intangibles make them great which is better than stats if you ask me.

When I say intangibles, take Big Ben escaping Suggs attempt at a sack late in the game and he was able to throw the ball away. A stat that actually hurts Big Ben cause it hurts his completion percentage, however that play pretty much wins him the game.

By the way my newest pet peeve is this sample size you number guys like to throw around. Never heard the term sample size used so much over the past fe days in my life and its getting old.

[nick]

Shel is a numbers guy walker........can't base his opinions with his own eyes because he doesn't know the game of football like someone who actually may have played or coaches the game does.

I think numbers can be just as skewed as opinions........take interceptions for example. What if Brady's 4 picks (no idea by the way) were results of batted balls at the line or dropped balls off of WR's hands into the DB's hands. Thats why sometimes throwing numbers at people is assanine at times just as much as opinion could be. Certain players intangibles make them great which is better than stats if you ask me.

When I say intangibles, take Big Ben escaping Suggs attempt at a sack late in the game and he was able to throw the ball away. A stat that actually hurts Big Ben cause it hurts his completion percentage, however that play pretty much wins him the game.

By the way my newest pet peeve is this sample size you number guys like to throw around. Never heard the term sample size used so much over the past fe days in my life and its getting old.

You're being a huge dick lately. By the way, stop throwing around the fact people played football to know shit lol. You coach at a high school, shit I could coach at a high school if I wanted too, doesn't make me Joe Montana lol

[nick]

Shel is a numbers guy walker........can't base his opinions with his own eyes because he doesn't know the game of football like someone who actually may have played or coaches the game does.

I think numbers can be just as skewed as opinions........take interceptions for example. What if Brady's 4 picks (no idea by the way) were results of batted balls at the line or dropped balls off of WR's hands into the DB's hands. Thats why sometimes throwing numbers at people is assanine at times just as much as opinion could be. Certain players intangibles make them great which is better than stats if you ask me.

When I say intangibles, take Big Ben escaping Suggs attempt at a sack late in the game and he was able to throw the ball away. A stat that actually hurts Big Ben cause it hurts his completion percentage, however that play pretty much wins him the game.

By the way my newest pet peeve is this sample size you number guys like to throw around. Never heard the term sample size used so much over the past fe days in my life and its getting old.

you are aware that with mathematics you could get a % of how often he would escape because of his height/weight in retrospect to Suggs height/weight/velocity and other shit right?

It's funny though, you talk about numbers being wrong and intangables, yet the Oakland A's made sabermetrics and people go by it and win. The Red Sox won the world series because of Sabermetrics. Let me repeat that so it sounds inspiring and maybe my intangables will allow you to understand. Numbers, Stats, and Sabermetrics helped the Boston Red Sox win the World Series. Fuck an intangable, stats.

[packsyD22]

Sigh.......Nick believe it or not knowing x's and o's in football helps in formulating any kind of football argument outside of numbers, sorry to break it to you. If you or anyone else disagrees that is fine.

If me being a dick is stating my opinion, than I do not know what to tell you. And you calling someone a dick is laughable.

You could sit here and tell me you know a lot about football than I would ask you what kind of running play should you audible to when a defense is in a 40 front and slanting to the weak side and the Mike backer is in a 50 location. Than you would walk away with your tail between your legs because you have no idea what I am talking about. So yeah when using my knowledge of coaching when it comes to discussions on message boards should carry some kind of weight. Sorry that again is my opinion and when watching the game with my eyes and examining a ton of different things while watching I formulate opinions on things.

Sometimes my opinions are wrong and I am fine with that, just like computers are wrong at times as well. All I am trying to state here is that walker is "watching" a guy do good things in regards to being a solid NFL WR and he actually makes good points. He uses the eyeball test. However Shel uses stats for Garcon having an average year and he is correct on that as well. Niether of them is right and both are formulating their opinions which is why we are on this board.

I also think the Saints are still the best team in the NFL as of today, but I am sure I am crazy with thinking that as well?

[packsyD22]

Another stat that I told people in this league last season that was important and got kicked around in the mud was TOP.

I am now looking at the TOP stat for the NFL and shockingly enough the teams with the best TOP in the league (top 12) 11 of them are either playoff teams and/or sitting on top of their division. The other one (Chargers) still are a long shot for the playoffs but are at least sitting at .500.

[buckeye76]

Another stat that I told people in this league last season that was important and got kicked around in the mud was TOP.

I am now looking at the TOP stat for the NFL and shockingly enough the teams with the best TOP in the league (top 12) 11 of them are either playoff teams and/or sitting on top of their division. The other one (Chargers) still are a long shot for the playoffs but are at least sitting at .500.

Always an important stat. Look at the Buckeyes vs Oregon last year in the Rose bowl, The key to the game was the Buckeyes TOP it was around 40mins, that meant the Oregon offense was only on the field for 20 mins. I agree Pat.....

[LetsGoPeay]

Sure Garcon is fast and runs good routes... when he's running the correct route. I've watched every minute of every Colts game since... forever. I can't count the number of times where I've seen Manning bitch at Garcon because he wasn't where he was supposed to be. I can think of at least three Manning INT's this year that were due to Garcon running the wrong route. Then there's all the dropped balls that went right through his hands. Right now Garcon is a huge example of a risk/reward player. Last year he was probably 80/20 in favor of reward. This year he's breaking even or even slightly negative.

[DRiccio21]

pat, i've known you long enough to understand that you're not a numbers guy... its all good, you do your thing and we'll do ours. i don't call you an idiot for not understanding numbers and you don't try to make us feel like idiots cause we're not high school offensive coordinators.

[ajalves]

Packsy, you play football beyond high school?

[DRiccio21]

Packsy, you play football beyond high school?

i believe he said he played at a JUCO out there

[ajalves]

Packsy, you play football beyond high school?

i believe he said he played at a JUCO out there

ok.

Still, saying stuff along the lines of how "tipped passes arent accounted for when it comes to INTs" and accusing stat guys of not seeing the whole picture is entirely hypocritcial.

How bout when a QB hits a defender in the #s and its dropped. It evens out with the balls that are tipped and then intercepted. Also as for rothlisberger escaping and throwing it away and it hurting his completion %.....how about when he throws a shitty pass and his recievers make adjustments and save him from an INT or incompletion?

My point is it all evens out pretty much.

You have this disrespect for 99% of the leagues "football knowledge" because you are an offensive coordinator at the high school level and played some juco ball.

I hope you guys win the state title, honestly. But as far as saying in not so many words that "shel is purely a #s guy and has never played so what does he know", give it a rest. Its unbecoming.

[Cnasty]

Its unbecoming.

You using the term "unbecoming" is...unbecoming.

[ajalves]

Its unbecoming.

You using the term "unbecoming" is...unbecoming.

it's not good