Would You Dock This...

[ReignOnU]

... On the Coaches Report?

So with the other conversation talking about different rules based on the new system and us kind of touching on the sensitivity of some coaches when it comes to docking others in the report for their game play, I felt compelled to ask this openly.

This specifically pretains to my offense and not any 'new' features in the game. I played this way for many seasons in the old gen and no one ever had a problem. But I think there's a relationship to guys that 'know' about different types of real life offenses and those that don't. I was playing a game the other night in which the opposing coach and I got into a bit of a dispute over it so it did set of a red light with me. (obviously he and I moved on and the counterpart will remain nameless)

Here's the basics:

I run the Run-N-Shoot offense. I played for 4yrs under one of the best RnS coaches ever. I have a very good understanding of how it works/operates. I've found 1 playbook in the game that is capable of almost being able to simulate it.

With all of that said, I use motion on 95% of my plays. I will ALWAYS wait until players are set. I need to hot route on 95% of my plays. This is because of 2 reasons. The preset passes will end up with guys running into each other once 1 is moved to the other side. And because with no FB/TE and the increased amount of pressure that a 4 man front can put on, I often need to hold my HB in to block or select a default pass play for them to stay back.

Initially, the other coach told me that I shouldn't be audibling EVERY play. Which was obviously not happening. Until I paid attention to the commentator. His words said something to the effect of "the QB is changing the play." This was happening when I'd hot route my HB or change the WRs route. So I can see where he initially thought I was changing. Now this isn't a 100% thing. Because you can actually audible the play without the game even saying anything and only the QB making a quick hand signal.

The play variety is VERY wide open, so that definitely isn't an issue. You'll get passes weak side, strong side, middle, HB and runs inside, outside, weak side, strong side and even the option either way. (Hence why I LOVE this)

I've went out of my way to ask 3 different coaches (actually prior to this game) what I needed to improve on and all 3 thought I played great and enjoyed the game.

So let's hear it, would you dock this offense?

[BigStimpin]

Myself personally, I'm fine with all that. Now a run and shoot with all kinds of play-action would get under my skin to no end.

[BIGmike]

Motion every play gets old quick...as does hot routing every play IMO.

[LetsGoPeay]

Motion every play gets old quick...as does hot routing every play IMO.

ditto

[nick]

do you need to start a new thread on everything? lol

as for motioning, thats gay. why do you have to motion 95% of the time? WHy not pick a formation that has players already there? lol.

[mcx79]

if you hot routed every single play the game would inevitably lose any fun factor.

[pounddarock]

I think this is a good opportunity to remind everyone to check out the rules again...obviously they are titled 09 rules, but for the most part I'm sure they won't change too much.

http://onlinedynasty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=124


As far as I'm concerned, what your doing shouldn't fall in line of being docked any points in coaches reports, especially according to the rules. (the problem is the opponent can't tell you are only hot routing your HB..it could get very annoying to hear it all game long) Too many guys forget that each of us have different styles of play (I ran the option offense with Navy and got in the top 3% of coaching reports...used the same offense a season later with Rutgers and must have gotten docked more I guess because guys didn't expect it)...It might be best if guys know your style ahead of time

Now on the the other hand...if you are up in a game, and still using the motion and passing..then yeah, you should make sure you have some under center plays to run the clock down

[kdog36]

for one that runs a flexbone and has a guy in motion pretty much every play
Is this the same as the motion y ou are talking about?

I for one like the flexbone and might run it but the one thing that I hang up on is the fact that the guy motions everytime

[packsyD22]

I motion on almost every other play there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, in fact its a great way to see what coverage the other team is in etc. The hot routing is fine although when I hot route the announcers never make any kind of comment about it.

Just out of curiosity what PB are you running that resembles the run and shoot?

[ReignOnU]

What you see with the motion with the flexbone is the 1 part of the game that I wish I had available for this offense. I've tinkered with the idea of using Air Force's playbook to try to simulate it, but that playbook (amazingly) is lacking a few key plays.

The motion I'm referring to is long motion via the slots from a standard spread formation.

To the user that mentioned plays under center, the RnS is derived from under center first. I'd say 60%-70% of my offense is under center from Ace-Spread / Ace-Trio (wish it was Ace-WR Trips to simulate).

Anyone else feel free to post on the topic. There's kind of 2 reasons behind me posting and that's to see how the league feels in general and get a feel for the coaches that I want to avoid playing if I decide to use it. There's no sense in me intentionally hurting myself if what I'm doing is going to annoy someone else.

[6ftdeep]

personally I dont have a problem with motion or hot routes.
I mean as long as he is motioning the guy just once and not one and then back to the other what is the problem.

I never saw guys complain the years that motion was a huge part of noles offense back on the ps2, or deedubs offense.

Also last year stimpin would come up to the line of scrimmage on last years game thinking he was payton manning .. I mean did guys complain about that.

I mean I dont really see how this offense abuses anything..

Is he not allowed to attempt to read the defense he is facing make adjustments and then snap the ball.

Guys shift thier defenses, call bump and runs, take the user control saftey and bring them to the middle of the field or up in the backers box .. Just about every play.
And no one complains about that.. so why is not the offense allowed to make adjustments and move a wr .

Hell I will tell you right now that when I run a play I may not motion every play but I will call a hot route almost every time, for one I like all my receivers running routes all of them. I want to force the other person to guard 5 wrs at all times, whether it be a combination of wrs, te, fb, hbs, whatever.

Also sometimes I pick a play and like most of the routes but one so will change that route to suit what I think is a better route combination.. Also if I sense you are blitzing and I think I know where it is coming from, or I dont have a quick route I might hot route a wr, or if you bump, and I think I can free up a wr to get up cause of your aggressive play I might hotroute, So potentially I may hot route every play.

Also I may motion rbs out of the backfield to make him a wr, cause hell you can throw 40 passes a game complete 30 of them 5 could have been to your hb and you may get grumplings about that, so I try to motion him out.

[ReignOnU]

I motion on almost every other play there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, in fact its a great way to see what coverage the other team is in etc. The hot routing is fine although when I hot route the announcers never make any kind of comment about it.

Just out of curiosity what PB are you running that resembles the run and shoot?

South Carolina
Ace-Spread (by far the most running options)
Ace-Trio (wish it were Ace-WR Trips)
Shotgun-Spread

I also mix in Split-Slot (with dual HBs... it's the closest I can get to the Wing-T short motion simulation).

The playbook has I normal/twins available for running. It also hase Ace-Big with a WR jet and PA WR Jet combo for screwing around.

My only wish would be to replace the I-form/Split back stuff with the 4 sets from the Air Force flexbone and I'd be in heaven.

[packsyD22]

They screwed up the motion though on the PS3 game you used to be able to send your guy half way then send him back mid motion but now he has to go all the way which is bogus, cause 50% of the time im using motion is to see what defense the other team is in or bring over a blocker to help block an OLB/SS for the run game.

[ReignOnU]

They screwed up the motion though on the PS3 game you used to be able to send your guy half way then send him back mid motion but now he has to go all the way which is bogus, cause 50% of the time im using motion is to see what defense the other team is in or bring over a blocker to help block an OLB/SS for the run game.

I agree, but in 30+ games, I've yet to even think about moving the WR back. There are other options that we have now that didn't exist when I used to play, to make up for this. Besides, you rarely, if ever see counter motion from this offense.

[6ftdeep]

yeah i thought about trying to run the RnS.. but a true RnS.. wrs read the coverage on the fly and make the proper adjustment.. You dont get that on this game.

Other pbs to take a look at is some of the one back books.. like oregon st, and one back.. that have some RnS type formations..

I tried to use SMU/ June Jones pb for it .. but for some reason I really dont like it.

[packsyD22]

They screwed up the motion though on the PS3 game you used to be able to send your guy half way then send him back mid motion but now he has to go all the way which is bogus, cause 50% of the time im using motion is to see what defense the other team is in or bring over a blocker to help block an OLB/SS for the run game.

I agree, but in 30+ games, I've yet to even think about moving the WR back. There are other options that we have now that didn't exist when I used to play, to make up for this. Besides, you rarely, if ever see counter motion from this offense.

We run the run and shoot at Hart High where i coach and we counter motion/motion EVERY SINGLE PLAY Not sure what you mean here.

Good point about the WR's making reads though 6 ft wish they had more of that in the game.

[ReignOnU]

yeah i thought about trying to run the RnS.. but a true RnS.. wrs read the coverage on the fly and make the proper adjustment.. You dont get that on this game.

Other pbs to take a look at is some of the one back books.. like oregon st, and one back.. that have some RnS type formations..

I tried to use SMU/ June Jones pb for it .. but for some reason I really dont like it.

Hence some of the hot routing. SC does have a few option routes, but they are VERY tough to use on Heisman.

I have a list of the potential playbooks (fyi-checkout the playbook search tool link I posted too, I made this list awhile ago).

South Carolina
Hawaii
Marshall
Michigan
Pitt
SMU
TCU

I actually toyed with the idea of running this completely out of the Georgia Tech playbook. This makes sense to me because we considered our slots as HBs and the single back was the FB. But, that would involve a helluva lot of effort to figure out. (maybe in my spare time, as a project) I think one issue right away is that you won't be able to make a simply man/zone read prior to the snap in many cases, because the motion comes after the hike.

[ReignOnU]

They screwed up the motion though on the PS3 game you used to be able to send your guy half way then send him back mid motion but now he has to go all the way which is bogus, cause 50% of the time im using motion is to see what defense the other team is in or bring over a blocker to help block an OLB/SS for the run game.

I agree, but in 30+ games, I've yet to even think about moving the WR back. There are other options that we have now that didn't exist when I used to play, to make up for this. Besides, you rarely, if ever see counter motion from this offense.

We run the run and shoot at Hart High where i coach and we counter motion/motion EVERY SINGLE PLAY Not sure what you mean here.

Good point about the WR's making reads though 6 ft wish they had more of that in the game.

Interesting, do you know which coaching variation that your system is adapted from? In every case where we would have used the counter motion, we would start in a Trips formation and just go long motion into it.

[ReignOnU]

Did some reading on the school packsyd, that's a pretty awesome program you have out west. I was looking at the school offensive records and they are tremendous. I saw a pic of the standard formation, they showed shotgun spread. Do you do much undercenter? Initially, when I was in school, we ran from undercenter nearly every play, but as the conference teams caught on, Coach added in shotgun sets.

[BIGmike]

personally I dont have a problem with motion or hot routes.
I mean as long as he is motioning the guy just once and not one and then back to the other what is the problem.

I never saw guys complain the years that motion was a huge part of noles offense back on the ps2, or deedubs offense.

Also last year stimpin would come up to the line of scrimmage on last years game thinking he was payton manning .. I mean did guys complain about that.

I mean I dont really see how this offense abuses anything..

Is he not allowed to attempt to read the defense he is facing make adjustments and then snap the ball.

Guys shift thier defenses, call bump and runs, take the user control saftey and bring them to the middle of the field or up in the backers box .. Just about every play.
And no one complains about that.. so why is not the offense allowed to make adjustments and move a wr .

Hell I will tell you right now that when I run a play I may not motion every play but I will call a hot route almost every time, for one I like all my receivers running routes all of them. I want to force the other person to guard 5 wrs at all times, whether it be a combination of wrs, te, fb, hbs, whatever.

Also sometimes I pick a play and like most of the routes but one so will change that route to suit what I think is a better route combination.. Also if I sense you are blitzing and I think I know where it is coming from, or I dont have a quick route I might hot route a wr, or if you bump, and I think I can free up a wr to get up cause of your aggressive play I might hotroute, So potentially I may hot route every play.

Also I may motion rbs out of the backfield to make him a wr, cause hell you can throw 40 passes a game complete 30 of them 5 could have been to your hb and you may get grumplings about that, so I try to motion him out.

No one motioned more than Deedub...which is why I rarely played him.